人生切割术第一季

《人生切割术》 《人生切割术》——资本主义与技术垄断的合谋 作者：Luxuan简介：爱电影但从没想过拍电影的摄影迷或许，《人生切割术》是另一部《摩登时代》。

卓别林那部旷世名作开片处关于羊群与工人的蒙太奇片段，与《人生切割术》的主角们在现代化办公大楼走廊中偶遇羊只的场景，是跨越80多年长河的呼应和重合。

世界在不断进步：从技术的向度望去；世界也在不断回旋式重复，甚至倒退：从关于人的主体性角度去思考。

《摩登时代》 剧照《人生切割术》，这部由Apple TV出品的剧集，拥有Apple的美学基因。

拉姆斯式极简设计与上世纪60年代复古美学，结合未来主义味道的记忆分离技术，令这部作品的时空锚点如一块滴入水中的墨汁，涣散模糊如被悬置。

在空间设计上，剧集拍摄取景位于美国纽泽西州的Bell Works（原为old Bell Labs Building in Holmdel）。

干脆利落的空间分割、洁白光滑的大楼内部是邪恶滋生长成的宁静之地：灯火通明、干净舒适的办公大楼正是现代工业社会通过技艺不断发展赐予人类舒适与便利的缩影，如同口感绵密的奶酪，柔软细腻给予无限的感官舒适；而公司那间臭名昭著的休息室则是现代人应直视的现代工业社会之内核：科学管理体系与技术跃进联手达成对人的全面压榨和物化。

《人生切割术》 剧照资本主义社会起始于钟表的发明，因为后者实现了标准化工作作息；现代工业社会则起源于泰勒及其科学管理体系，根据美国批评家尼尔·波斯曼的观点，虽说科学管理体系的初衷在于提高生产效率，但它的出现剥夺了人的主体性，将标准化体系置于人之上，让体系的运转来代替人的思考。

赫伯特·马尔库塞在《单向度的人》一书断定人沦为发达工业社会的奴隶的证据在于，人开始“作为一种工具、一种物而存在，是奴役状态的纯粹形式。

”（《单向度的人》第39页）卡夫卡《变形记》中主人公格里高利变成的那只甲虫虽然骇人实则脆弱，小说虽看起来悲观消沉，实则极具抗争意识。

虽说格里高利无法与卡夫卡后期作品《审判》中的约瑟夫·K和他未完成遗作《城堡》中的人物K（剧集中四位接受分离术的主人公的姓名灵感应该是来源于卡夫卡，意指人被极度压缩至一个指代功能的可怕状态）拥有同一份西西弗斯般的韧性，但格里高利在重压之下选择异化为一只格格不入的甲虫，进而摒弃掉自己被物化的命运，也不能不视作一种抗争。

在《人生切割术》中，马克的姐夫里肯是技术垄断时代的后技术文化代表人物：具有浪漫主义气质，短暂逃逸出社会的资本主义机制（曾和流浪汉一起生活），不以主流方式谋生，因此也不收其束缚，具有反思内省能力，成为社会反叛者的代表。

他以清晰决断的语句揭示出现代工业社会的核心是“灰烬”。

而里肯试图唤起的人对于自身主体性的自觉曾是前技术时代里人所拥有的庸常财富。

《人生切割术》 剧照能够从现代工业社会的剥削维度去欣赏此剧，是大家喜爱这部剧集的主要原因，因为它所描画的与每一位观者自身所处的现实是如此之近，或者说这就是大家的生活之全貌，极易引起共鸣。

但导演本·斯蒂勒的野心不止于此。

本季的最后一集更暴露出他一直试图将资本异化的阴暗画卷继续描绘下去，深入下去，引入技术垄断的概念，让画幅更加暗黑也更具想象力。

而稍加思考，观者会发现自己的生活与之也并不遥远。

《人生切割术》 剧照波斯曼曾在《技术垄断》一书中论述的“技术垄断时代”的确能够成为本剧核心思想的原型。

波斯曼曾在书中明晰指出奠定技术垄断基石的三大原则——即唯科学主义的三大原则： 1. 自然科学提供的方法能够揭示人心的秘密，也可以揭示社会生活的方向；2. 社会科学揭示的原理可以合情合理地用来重组人类社会。

“社会工程学”的思想在这些人身上滥觞，唯科学主义的种子在他们的身上萌芽。

（……）3. 科学可以用作一个全面的信仰系统，赋予生命意义，使人安宁，使人获得道德上的满足，甚至使人产生不朽的感觉媒介批评三部曲：娱乐至死+童年的消逝+技术垄断第515-516页

《人生切割术》 剧照这三大原则与《人生切割术》的恐怖之所在契合，也是创造出分离术的卢蒙创始人基尔何以身居“上帝”的位置并拥有一众信徒的原由。

科贝尔在家中设立的神坛更是将技术重塑信仰的可怕影响力具像化。

如果说伽利略在研究天文理论的同时依然没有动摇他本人对神学上帝的信仰根基，是因为科学真理与灵魂居所在他心中泾渭分明。

反观剧中，以基尔为首的伊根家族将一切价值体系摧毁，自己转而成为上帝，试图创造一场技术创世纪奇观，重建一切伦理道德意识形态。

卢蒙公司所用的圣人驯服图、以及弗里德里希浪漫主义名作——《雾海上的漫游者》透露出其征服一切的激进态度。

而这种企图已接近成功的边缘。

圣人驯服四种情绪的油画当然是意味深长的，它暗示着人异化后接近机器，剥离四种情绪。

自奥古斯特·孔德开创实证主义的那一刻起便是铺设好了人类被当作客体这一演变之路的第一块砖。

而自弗朗西斯·培根开始系统思考科学的实用主义潜力，人类便开始通过权力的让渡以自身主体性完整性作为交换的砝码去换取物质生活上的舒适便捷，并在这条路上渐行渐远，缺乏谨慎足够乐观。

《人生切割术》 剧照剧中的分离术，作为金字塔尖技术，完美呈现了技术赋予谁更大的权力和自由，以及相应的，削弱了谁的权利与自由。

如果说在《摩登时代》中，工人们如同机器般可被分离以及替换；那么在《人生切割术》中，这一分离随着科技的进步，达到登峰造极的程度——个体的内部遭到分离。

这项分离术依靠一片植入人脑中的芯片，以电脑简单切换内部及外部模式，即可将人的大脑相应地切换到公司内部以及公司外部模式，人的记忆也被分别隔离在两个时空内。

记忆是人建立自我的基石，正如历史是人类社会不可或缺的部分，这也是为什么随着剧情的发展，观众会发现实际上并不存在分离术科学理论所描述的完美的内外部模式，存在的是作为本体的“我”与分割出的那一部分“我”的时间，而存活在这一段时间中的生物并非完全是原本的“我”，而是一个由于记忆空白导致思辨能力如婴孩般的脆弱个体，一个技术试图创造的白纸人、听话的奴隶。

当然，人类并非是还原主义所认为的能够被机械地分离，人类是一整个神秘复杂的有机体。

于是，剧中这些遭受分离术的主人公意识到自己是无根的浮萍，成为出于本能急于寻找记忆的反骨，而这也是整部剧集戏剧张力的来源。

剧集集中地表现这些白纸人的囚徒状态，例如一个跳接将海莉下班以及第二天上班的场景进行无缝连接以表内部模式“人格”的疲惫感；以激烈的戏剧张力来表现他们所受到的规训和洗脑，例如廉价无聊的小奖品成为鼓励努力工作的诱饵，例如休息室中的精神折磨与洗脑灌输。

而提到完整的个人，那更是早已被分割得支离破碎，这是马克的姐夫——里肯在自己的著作中所探讨的命题也是整部剧集所讨论的核心：人何以为人。

《人生切割术》 剧照分割术不仅被资本家用于奴役打工一族。

在本季最后一集，上流阶层运用分割术试图让自己的一切体验更为舒适的工具，自愿分割出一个奴隶来承担一切痛苦之事；伊根家族成员则将分割术变为自己拥有不朽意识的恐怖手腕。

奴役者不再是前几集中滋滋发响却无人回应的电话，如《城堡》中代表着无上权力、K永远无法到达的城堡；所有人都怀揣着成为奴役者的梦想，却沦为奴隶，跪拜在充满诱惑的技术的皮鞭下。

埃及法老塔姆斯曾说：“技艺发明人并不是评判发明利弊的最佳人选，使用者才能够做出恰当的评判。

”但他或许也没有料想到，有朝一日，使用者已被割裂为碎片，无法保持为一个完整的个体，去述说自己真实的体验。

对老板而言，员工全身心或如机器一般精准地完成任务是他们的最大愿望；而对员工来说，许多工作现在回到了它最原始的目的，即赚一份工资与口粮。

因此，如果能把工作与生活彻底地分开，或许也并非一件坏事……伴随着当代数字媒体与新技术的出现，导致传统8小时工作制在许多职场场景下被日渐分解，原本在固定时间与空间内的工作开始弥散进个体的24小时生活，从而导致了当下一种普遍的“生活成了工作的点缀”结果，也进而使得曾经古典的“工作/生活”二分模式被颠覆。

《人生切割术》剧照。

或许正是为了解决这个问题，近来的热播剧《人生切割术》中，卢蒙公司就开发了一项叫分离手术的新技术：个体记忆被一分为二，一份属于公司内的工作状态（称作innie），一份属于外面的生活（称作outie）。

然而恰恰是这个被卢蒙公司宣传得十分完美的新技术开启了对传统个体存在、记忆和自我的摧毁与重塑。

在许多评论《人生切割术》的文章中，人们都关注卢蒙公司分离手术的目的，即为了分开工作和私人生活，从而让两者都能不受彼此影响而达到最好的效果。

但这一点却恰恰是对现代晚期资本主义工作现状的补救，就如《24/7：晚期资本主义与睡眠的终结》一书中所指出的，当下个体的工作时间早已经超过了传统的8小时制，并且这种新的工作模式——尤其在时间和空间中的弥散性——导致人们几乎24小时处于一种“工作”状态。

也正是在这点上，我们能够发现剧中卢蒙公司的矛盾之处，即它还遵守着古老的8小时工作制，并且容许员工下午5点下班。

相较于我们当下所处的工作环境和状态，卢蒙公司更像是一种传统的公司结构，或说是古典公司制度的稍微现代版本，而非真实的当下状况。

或许，从一开始作为一部科幻剧的故事设定本身，卢蒙公司更像是一个隐喻，是对我们当下所处的社会、工作以及其与个体生活和存在意义的展现。

撰文｜重木作为现代规训机器卢蒙公司与其说是一家资本公司，不如说它更像是一台现代经典的全权机器（Totalitarian Machine）。

许多评论指出它与福柯在《规训与惩罚》中讨论的“边沁监狱”（或称为全景敞视监狱）的相似性。

区别于传统展示性的暴力惩罚，现代规训制度的运作模式变得更加细腻和隐秘，并且它主要作用于个体的身体，通过各种技术和手段，把人的身体当作一种工具和媒介，从而使其被控制在一个强制、剥夺、义务和限制的体系之中。

而这一规训手段最主要的目的甚至不再是终结错误，而是为了实现一种“灵魂控制”，即“不仅控制他们的行为，而且控制他们现在的、将来的、可能的状况”。

《人生切割术》剧照。

在《人生切割术》中，卢蒙公司对此有着一系列完善且细化的规训方式，其目的也是为了能够通过消灭个体的多种不必要的情绪达到一种自我控制的理性状态。

就如当下诸多公司内部的企业文化或规章制度也往往有着此类作用。

这一状态与他们的工作有着密切的联系，但很显然恰恰是“机器化”的个体改造导致其不得不面对可能的问题。

因为无论如何，个体总非机器，任何一处短路或是稍犹疑就可能对整个流畅的系统造成短路。

新员工赫利的到来以及其极具个性的叛逆气质，成为这个一向风平浪静且总能准时完成公司季度任务的宏观数据精检部的问题。

在很多地方，《人生切割术》都流露出典范式的理性和科学主义，很大程度上，它也可以看作启蒙主义最极端的产物。

在以赛亚·柏林的《启蒙的时代》中，启蒙主义的重要理想和信念之一便是人类最终能够仅仅依靠其理性来建构一个良善的尘世之国。

而伴随着其后科学技术的发展，机器与科学理性渐渐成为个体理性中的主角，一种科学主义与对机械规律的着迷让现代思想中充满了对理性规划的信念。

也正是在这一普遍思想的影响下，现代资本主义社会才得以获得自信，而其中的工作问题，尤其是对效率和标准化的追求，使得社会经济发展得到了质的变化。

《工作：巨变时代的现状、挑战与未来》，作者: ［美］埃伦·拉佩尔·谢尔，译者: 秦晨，版本: 后浪丨北京时代华文书局 2021年12月埃伦·拉佩尔·谢尔在其《工作：巨变时代的现状、挑战与未来》中便指出，恰恰是工业时代雇主们对效率的追求，使现代工作的细化和标准化得以实现；而因对效率的关注，使资本主义经济得以迅速发展，但与此同时产生的问题便是“效率至上”所导致的剥削与对员工个体生活的侵蚀。

在《人生切割术》中，卢蒙公司的部门细化、员工工作的隔离几乎到了一种妄想的程度，这种绝对的制度隔离对现代工作个体的意识和道德产生了鲜明的影响。

成为一颗“螺丝钉”现代工作的细化和标准化带来的一个典型特征，是职业道德和规范的重要性增强，在日渐分化的工作模式之中，员工与员工之间的交流渐渐降低且对彼此的工作内容所知甚少。

伴随着现代专业的分化和隔绝，导致每个人只要围着自己的“一亩三分地”辛苦耕耘就行，这取消了他们对于自己工作整体的关注以及工作本身的价值问题。

卢蒙公司的员工座位设计是当下各类公司的典型模式。

也是在这一背景下，出现了鲍曼在其《现代性与大屠杀》中对德国纳粹大屠杀中理性且极具现代工业模式的官僚机器的反思，而如果我们再结合汉娜·阿伦特在其《艾希曼在耶路撒冷》一书中对艾希曼的观察就会发现，恰恰是“各司其职”这一现代工作美德，导致员工们的“螺丝钉化”，从而让他们不必去思考和质问。

在《人生切割术》中反对分离手术的宣传单中便出现对技术造成的个体“道德选择自主权”剥夺的警告。

每个人只需要完成自己的工作，至于这一工作内容或是其价值问题则不在他们的考虑之中，因为他们几乎从一开始就不知道自己所做的工作在整个系统中所起的作用和意义。

《人生切割术》剧照。

在这里，工作和个体自身不再存在任何关系。

尤其是如剧中马克等人所做的数字技术工作，更是与传统需要身体参与的劳动和工作不同，这也消除了它对个体带来的直接意义。

它只是一项需要完成以获得奖励或工资的任务，对个体本身的生活和生命不再产生任何积极的影响。

或许也恰恰正是这样的观念，使得卢蒙公司认为其分离手术是可以被理解的。

在很大情况下，我们能够理解马克的选择，他说“工作只是工作”而已，是一份自己日常生活不需要的记忆，因为它和我们自身无关。

因此卢蒙的分离手术就是为了进一步解决传统中关于工作/生活二元的苦恼，这一手术本身也正是建立在这一意识形态基础之上。

为了更好地工作与私人生活，彻底使两者分离，从而也就避免了我们当下所面对的生活工作化的困境。

工作不再是为了获得更好生活或是实现个体意义和价值的手段，反而成了个体存在的目的，最终导致人的异化。

其实，分离手术就建立在工作和生活可以绝对无关联的基础上，从而质疑了传统认为的个体能从工作中获得自我成就、认同和创造性的观念，进而也彻底否定了韦伯所发现的新教伦理在现代工作中的延续。

卢蒙公司的分离手术几乎从字面上粗暴地理解了这一异化问题，从而选择彻底切断工作－生活的联系来保障双方的完整性，但问题也由此而生。

自我剥削与简化卢蒙公司分离手术的“副产品”便是对个体意识与记忆的一分为二，而其所挑战的便是西方自柏拉图以来就强调的自我同一性（identity）问题。

或许《人生切割术》最精彩的部分是我们在这样一种外科手术的介入下，个体能够在不同的空间中展现不同的“我”，且二者一般情况下不会出现交叉。

虽然卢蒙公司一直强调分离手术的不可逆，但我们最后发现它其实是可逆的。

由于记忆与意识的不共享，对个体自身而言，innie和outie完全具有自我独立性（指分割后的工作、生活两种模式）。

他们虽然都知道在外面还有另一个自己共享这具身体，却已经是截然不同的两个人了。

《人生切割术》剧照。

但这样的彼此独立本身却又是脆弱的。

就如我们在第一集看到的对赫利一系列操作所展现的，卢蒙公司在为刚刚完成分离手术的新员工介绍完情况后，便会播放他们outie的视频，且视频中的内容也大同小异，即表示自己是自愿参与分离手术的，由此来安抚或是打消innie在公司内的不满或辞职倾向。

在这里，公司内与生活中的两个自我是存在等级的，后者主宰前者，就如当赫利想尽办法希望辞职时，她看到自己的outie录制的视频，后者强调：“我才是真实的人，你不是。

我来下决定，你没有这个权力，给我乖乖在公司干活”。

这便是吊诡之处。

许多评论指出此处的隐喻是现代资本主义工作制度中的规训通过内化而形成的自我剥削和压制。

一方面，我们可以这么理解，但另一方面，我们或许还可以就此来讨论个体同一性本身的霸权问题。

这一同一性霸权也是当代最典型且隐秘的剥削形式，即个体削减自身复杂性，从而导致（或渴望）自身处于一种纯洁的状态之中。

恰恰是在这一削减过程中，我们进行自我规训的同时也对自身非人化处理。

在《人生切割术》中，宏观数据精检部的四位员工都因为某种原因而自愿地选择接受分离手术，男主马克的经历或许最有代表性，他为了逃避妻子车祸身亡之后的痛苦和悲伤而选择分离手术。

《人生切割术》剧照。

分离手术在这里像是记忆剪切器或是对个体感受到的复杂情绪进行抹除的手段，尤其是痛苦、悲哀和难过等“消极情绪”。

而卢蒙公司的分离手术所面对的也恰恰是人类身上的各种情绪，在这里，我们看到个体需求和现代工作模式需求之间的联结点，即对于自我情绪——非理性——的逃避。

这一方面是科学理性本身对非理性的压制，就如福柯所说的，理性的建立本身就意味着一系列非理性被排除；另一方面则是现代个体在面对自身情绪问题时渐渐失去了处理和应对的能力，转而祈求一种机械式的或是科学式的管理。

弥漫在现代社会中各种各样的情绪管理或是情绪练习课程背后所分享的也恰恰是这一套意识形态，古老的“做自己情绪的主人”从古典的修身艺术转变成当下的理性、科学甚至是医学化的管理。

《楚门的世界》剧照。

无论是在《黑客帝国》还是《楚门的世界》，我们都会发现，对理性的、科学化且管理井然有序这类极具全权意味特质的颠覆往往来源于个体的“非理性”情绪，而其中又往往以爱情最为经典。

在《人生切割术》中，宏观数据精检部中原本最循规蹈矩的埃尔文最终恰恰是因为自己所喜欢的对象的突然离职而决定参加其他三人的“颠覆”计划，而在第一季的最终，我们也发现马克的innie在公司外苏醒且发现了自己妻子并未去世。

除此之外，另一个有意思的点是赫利这个新成员，她几乎从一开始就十分反感在卢蒙内工作，且一直寻找各种各样方法和手段希望能把消息传递给自己的outie，最终甚至不惜自杀。

对于宏观数据精检部来说，赫利就是那个不稳定因素，是那个机器中的“非理性”因素。

虽然剧中并未过分强调性别因素在这里的影响，但我们依旧可以说赫利的女性身份在某种程度上依旧继承了西方典型的两性性别观念，即作为非理性的、感性且情绪化的“女性”始终是现代启蒙（男性）理性中最大的bug。

而剧中马克的老板——另一个最主要的女性角色——科贝尔则是另一类典型女性，即拉康所谓的“阳具女孩”，她们按照男权社会的制度与标准把自己“去女性化”，最终由此得以进入男孩俱乐部，成为其中一员。

《人生切割术》剧照。

《人生切割术》剧照。

科贝尔深深折服于卢蒙公司创始人的意识形态，并把他当作上帝信仰，对其的信条也是深刻于心。

她在卢蒙公司内的形象几乎是最典型的“全权”形象，她是一种去性别化的男性化，作为这一卢蒙制度和意识形态最忠诚的守护者。

她与赫利形成鲜明对比，而有意思的是公司之外的赫利正是卢蒙公司当下掌权者的女儿。

在《人生切割术》中，马克的公司好友佩蒂是第一个解除分离手术的人，结果两种记忆的融合导致她整个生活和存在都出现危机，最终也由此死亡。

正是在这里，卢蒙分离手术的天真被揭露：从来就不存在那种截然无关的两个个体，即使记忆和意识被空间分割，但它们始终都存在于身体之中，因此也就必然会留下相应的痕迹。

工作之我和日常之我其实并没区分，生命和意识的绵延本身是不可能阻断的，卢蒙的分离手术所面对和处理的依旧是——只不过以一种更加夸张或现代性的形式——工作之异化问题。

除此之外，我们更应该注意的是对于纯洁同一性的迷思，一种对于自我存在的有意设限或简化，把自身复杂的意识、情感、欲望和存在缩略为一个个标签，放入一个个框架之中。

然而，个体始终是一种处境式的存在，即我们无时无刻不在流变和变化（becoming）中生活、思考、做出判断以及道德抉择。

对自我的剥削一方面或许来源于现代工作制度的机械化与其弥散性，另一方面也可能来源于我们自身对复杂自我的简化与暴政。

我们对自身进步的追求、对“更完美的自我”的塑造以及对内化了的机械思维的信仰，就如韩炳哲在其《暴力拓扑学》中所发现的，这两点最终都会在绩效主义的背景下形成对当下个体存在的最大危机与困扰。

本文为独家原创内容。

作者：重木；编辑：走走；校对：贾宁。

封面为《人生切割术》（2022）剧照。

在“切割”中，Mark等人展现work life balance的自我麻醉，但Helly更深一层，展现了阶级立场不同而造就的自我异化以及对自我异化的凝视。

她不需要像其他人一样通过“切割”来逃避现实的痛苦，她为了家族企业的利益而去“体验生活”。

她是唯一一个能看到inny的outty，但看到inny自杀未遂后无动于衷，继续“看戏”，这点令人细思恐极。

她觉得inny不是自己，只是一个“工作状态的自己”，她感受不到inny生理和心理的痛苦。

这种对“工作中的自己”的切割、异化和凝视，自然来自于她的privilege，但在我们的生活中也比比皆是。

我们觉得在“狗屁工作”里吃再多苦受再多委屈都可以接受，因为“这只是一份工作”、“工作就是这样的”，以及我们可以在工作外的消费、玩乐、甚至兴趣爱好自我提升里获得补偿。

但事实上，痛苦是不可抵消也不可补偿的。

工作里再多的苦，不会因为你下班后拥有的快乐生活而抵消。

这种自我切割、自我麻醉，只会正当化公司和资本的进一步剥削。

影片中还有更多有趣的细节，比如环形监狱监视法，让员工感到无时无刻不在被监视中，但其实只有一个保安；部门之间被塑造成陌生、割裂和争斗的状态，以至于每个员工都是一个原子化的个体；称呼彼此名+姓的首字母，以至于变成一个代号（英文和中文相反，重名很多，区分人与人本质靠姓），这些现象似乎在中国的互联网大厂（尤其是拼多多）已经上演。

最黑色幽默的，是Mark的大舅子Deven写的心灵鸡汤，变成了公司里的《工人宣言》。

在一个极端异化的剥削世界里，认识自我、人格尊严，已然变成了最具有反抗性和革命性的斗争。

很简单一故事剪的支离破碎故弄玄虚比如，第一+第二集用超长时间篇幅来讲很简单的一个迎新人的情节，几幕就能带过的事情硬是搞得花里胡哨，非得把继承人女儿故意毫无意义地四仰八叉扔桌子上造无聊的悬念还双视角拍了两次，除了凑时长完全看不出意义何在很多基础设定奇葩且完全经不起推敲比如，公司人明知自己生命的全部意义和每分每秒都是要趴在电脑前工作，却依然牛马一样任劳任怨，还会准点做毫无意义的进出一次电梯的动作然后继续上班，简直比机器人还自感牛马，却没有任何厌倦？

还比如，明知肉体不会承担任何伤害却会被公司保安随便一句话就能叫去自甘洗脑，原因仅仅在于公司保安“看起来很凶”？

刚刚还凶神恶煞地想要自杀，看见保安的脸顿时变成温顺的大气不敢出的小绵羊？

哪怕自残自杀都不怕，却会被看起来很凶的保安用几句话吓得接受几百遍洗脑自白？

编剧你觉得这种设定合理吗请问？

再比如公司人居然自甘被公司外的“自己”单方面威胁？

但凡有点智商也能意识到威胁是双向的吧？

最让人感觉假的就是公司内的人物塑造完全体现不出一个知道真相后的被囚禁者的真实挣扎反应和痛苦反应主打概念和设定的高概念片太多硬设定经不起推敲也没有合理解释，挺无语的6.0

S01E01：似乎有点平平无奇，是一个很好的概念，但展开的还是比较慢，最后的女boss似乎是可以穿越分割线的？

这个男演员还真眼生，似乎一次都没看过他的作品，期待下集。

e02:情理之中，但算有趣。

引入了一个穿越者。

有点喜欢剧里那个概念，如果你辞职，其实就是杀死自己。

以及8小时不间断上班人不会疯掉嘛！

十分钟前看完了这一季的最后一集。

当Mark拿着相框，奔跑着，大喊着She's alive。

然后画面定格，出现了Ben Stiller的名字。

前期所有的冷淡画面，冷淡描述和冷淡对白，都如同堆积的白色荒草，在一瞬间被点燃。

之前觉得Mark很娘娘腔，走路如此，行事如此，对话如此。

而Helly又过于激烈和强势。

但到最后，你会发现最温柔的Mark才拥有更持续的力量，Helly走路时左右摇摆的身影也如此迷人。

整个剧的剧本节奏，人物线，拍摄方法，剪辑，构思，工作与生活的暗喻，分离人格的对立与融合，以及公司的阴谋与悬念都恰到好处。

我一直觉得，喻义恰当才是完美无瑕。

一张纸撕成20张是拼图的乐趣，撕成1000张的拼图则是一种痛苦。

每个人对这个剧都有自己的看法和入口，这就是最好的作品，让读者与成型的作品去生长和呼应。

过度的喻义，如同现在的Wes Anderson提供了新的电影文本，拍给专业人士看，但失去了观众和阅读的乐趣。

面对这部剧，如同面对喜爱的女人，谈的越多越清晰明确，反而对喜爱是种损伤。

面对真正的喜欢，应该是少年般的语塞和木讷。

写到这里，就足够了。

可以说是，疫情以来，最佳美剧，好看。

每个周五的期待告一段落，期待下一季。

还有364天。

上海疫情，在单位封闭了半个月，回家又关了一个月。

坐牢的滋味，每个人都真切地享受了一遍。

五点起床一样抢不到菜，看新闻又可能被气出问题。

人在家中坐牢，工作却一点不能拉下，元宇宙的乐趣尚未到来，饿肚子的危机已经满溢。

还是看喜剧演员转行导演的悲剧吧。

这部切割术一开始设定绝妙，但高开低走，节奏拖沓，9集最后为了保证下季下的hook几乎是在欺负观众了。

首先注意到的，是卢蒙公司的科贝尔的制服，接待处，公司建筑风格，基尔的侧面浅浮雕风格，有东欧和前苏联的美学影子，但说它是斯大林风格是不准确的，苹果风格的苹果剧，乔布斯孜孜以求的方尖碑式庄严洁净，在剧里面贯彻了大致一小半。

老大哥化身蓝绿晶体管，不仅满足于在从外部观看你，还深入脑体，将你人格解离。

但看完9集，也不知道卢蒙公司的目的是什么，看这个剧情走向，大致是要滑向买办政治的阴谋论，所谓“基尔的孩子”，也无非重复了技术进步被集权洗脑术利用的政治学老路。

被关在break room里接上测谎仪，这件事无需太高超的手段，乌姆里奇对哈利波特做过，白色恐怖对小四的父亲也做过，一间炎热的房间和一支笔，一堆写不尽自己罪状的白纸就够。

格列佛游记中，某国思想警察的工作是检查人们的大便，以此来确保没有不适宜的思想被生产（排泄）出来，世界在进化，如今保安大叔不需要翻大便，从源头开始做切颅术即可。

果然先进，洁净了很多。

马克思的话不好多说，不说也罢。

另一方面，主角Mark·S之所以愿意来卢蒙接受这份工作，全是因为情感受创，爱妻车祸惨死以后就陷入了危机。

这和受到创伤而将自己原本人格压抑，解离的心理症候——人格分裂症是一致的。

假定悲惨的事情不发生在自己身上，而分裂出一个承受痛苦，压力，和精神压力的人去承受。

正如戴文在分娩中心遇到的孕妇，将部分的自己分裂出去承受孕产的痛苦，剩下的自己即可安享轻松惬意的生活，不过是代孕故事的另一个转喻版本。

新人格，baby人格，从出生就受到母亲（科贝尔）的严厉教导，训诫，但随着新人格的成长，也必然会遇到代际冲突，对权威的不信任和挑战，小分队的密谋，反抗，研习的都是这条道路。

人格既然能一分为二，自然也可以一分为四，四分为八，乃至无穷尽，夸张如污鬼大群，有上千人格齐聚一身的情境，无法统合的自我和分裂成碎片的记忆，每一个，都受人操弄，被人控制。

谋求统合，在个人，在时间流中是自我认识的路，在社会，是不同阶级群体寻找共识的路。

但时间行至21世纪，没有佛洛依德也没有马克思，只有“基尔的孩子们”，分裂的污鬼。

Definitely the best American TV series of the year (so far). The acting, setting, editing, soundtrack, story, lines...all are simply impeccable. Everything feels intact.The director is really skilled at steering the rhythm of the whole story: he takes his time building on the characters and the suffocating LUMON world at the beginning, but as more secrets unfold, the storyline is heated up with the innie-outie transition taking place more frequently. It all leads to the final meeting of the protagonist's working personality and his/ her real personality in the last episode. In fact, one of the core messages that this drama tries to get across is you cannot really sever your working self from your real life. Despite the fact that I felt a bit dizzy at first, I was totally mesmerized throughout the last five episodes.I guess the story is not new (memories of similar sci-fi plots have been flashing by in my mind), but the exquisite storytelling is sure worth the unreserved applause.

这也太好看太精彩了吧！！！

黑科技感觉直接拉满，有太多太多的隐喻恕我不能一一道来。

就从自身的观赏体验来看也简直太过于强烈了。

人的代入很有意思。

无论是从哪个角度哪个时间点来看，能够接受并且同意接受分割的人总觉得是那个outie。

可以暂时忘却亡妻的痛苦，可以摆脱生育的苦楚，甚至荒谬地感觉自己不用体验工作就可以be paid。

那么请问，innie又是谁呢？

不同的人格，其实基本上等同于不同的人了，只不过share the same body. 这是彻头彻尾的奴役和霸凌。

一切innie的痛苦和心声根本无人关心，因为在outie的世界里，innie等于下等人，或者非人。

在公司的世界，一切显得这么荒诞与惊悚。

不知道工作内容的意义是什么，却被公司强行灌输了极大的意义感。

所谓的奖励居然是什么华夫饼与杯垫。

可是换言之，我们目前的工作奖励不过是加码成了什么购物卡或者豪华游。

本质上来说这两者真的有质的区别吗？

难说。

独立人格即独立思想，即独立的人。

他们不愿意全部的世界只有工作，不愿意不能延续彼此的感情，不愿意想不起自己的家人，他们想要最终的自由，无论代价。

虽然很多人已经猜测到了Helly的身份，但结尾处她的出场还是极度的精彩和惊艳。

看着享有自己身体的另一个人格在华丽的舞台上侃侃而谈，说什么一家人，说什么共情，说什么发展，我想Helly R简直要吐出来。

她要撕毁这一切，因为同一个身体的另一个Helly不是她，所以她不允许自己被任何人奴役哪怕是另一个自己。

至今还是没有讲到这个公司到底在做什么，是不是某种类型的“先锋实验”。

可是作为第一季的终结已经十分完美了。

留有一定的悬念，可是已经完整了这个故事的基本框架。

最后一集看的我大汗淋漓紧张不已。

看到Mark冲出来的时候我几乎要替他大喊出声：She's alive!!!

活动地址：https://viff.org/whats-on/severance-talk/ 访问这个网站后注册一个账户就可以购买这个采访录像，费用是 0 元，只填写有效的邮箱信息即可，下单成功后不久邮箱会收到一个播放地址，然后就可以观看这个采访录像。

这个采访录像是经过 DRM 加密的，非常不容易下载（反正我没成功），而且有一定的有效期限（5 月 23 日之前有效），所以购买完毕后要尽快抽时间看完。

我从网站上下载到了这个采访的英文字幕，按照采访的格式重新整理了一遍，发到这里。

英文字幕应该是机器识别+人工校对实现的，大体上没问题，时不时会出现一些小错误。

访谈录音：May 9, 2022 - VIFF Creator Talk, Severance.mp3

Kinga Binkowska👩Kinga Binkowska: Good evening, everyone. And thank you for joining us. My name is Kinga Binkowska and I'm industry and live producer here at the Vancouver International Film Festival. I would like to start by giving thanks to the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh Nations for the continued stewardship of the unceded, unoccupied land on which we live and work.From creators and showrunners to directors, writers, producers and craft people, the VIFF Talk series draws from a fine and creative group of key creators, whether they're responsible for critically acclaimed films, or groundbreaking TV series, our guests provide a treasure trove of information and inspiration for fellow creators, filmmakers, industry professionals, and of course, the fans.Right at 98% Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, Apple TV+ Severance is one of the most acclaimed new shows of this year. Already greenlit for a second season, this mind and genre bending Series offers a heavy mix of sci fi, "dramedy", conspiracy, mystery and psychological thriller as it investigates the concept of work life balance in a speculative realm in which office workers personal and professional experiences are really siloed.We're thrilled to chat with creator Dan Erickson, whose inventive series features and unique and brilliant script, sublime direction by Ben Stiller and incredible casting highlighted by Adam Scott's note perfect centre performance and Christopher Walken biggest role on the small screen.Our hosts for this evening is Duana Taha, writer and producer. Welcome Dan and Duana!

Dan Erickson & Duana Taha👩🏻Duana Taha: Hi there, I'm Duana Taha, I am thrilled to be in conversation with Dan Erickson, courtesy of VIFF. A little intro for those of you who don't know, Dan Erickson began writing plays and making movies with his siblings and friends at a young age and went on to get his BA in English and creative writing from Western Washington University. He later attended NYU Tisch School, where he received a Masters in Dramatic Writing. Upon moving to LA, Dan delivered food and worked in string of office jobs, all while conceiving and writing the original pilot for Severance. The script became the first TV pilot ever selected for the annual bloodlist, which ultimately led to a creative partnership with Red Arrow productions, Endeavor Content and Apple. Dan splits his time between LA and New York while sneaking back to his beloved Washington State every chance he gets. The creator of Severance, please welcome Dan Erickson.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Hi Duana, How are you?👩🏻Duana Taha: I am pretty good. Thank you so much for coming and speaking with us. There is so much to chat about.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: It's so good to be here.👩🏻Duana Taha: Very excited. I asked you just before we began, which question you've been asked most often, and you said, you know, there was a lot about where did this idea come from? I don't have that question. Because I can imagine that, having worked one or many, many terrible jobs or jobs that thought they were pretty cute and great, fine. My question to you is, do the people at your real life Lumon know that they're the inspiration for Lumon? Are you getting DM's from everybody in your life going? It was us, wasn't it? Come on! 🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Oh, God. I hope not. No, I have gotten DM's from I haven't gotten DM's from any of the bad guys. I'll say that. And any of the mysterious higher ups represented on the show. I have gotten DM's from former co-workers and people who have sort of been in those particular trenches with me. And those have mostly been appreciative. Yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: But they recognize that some of your jokes and references are just for that. Yeah?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah. Ya no, for sure, and it's all stuff I'm grateful for now, but, you know, little, just weird corporate idiosyncrasies that I collected along the way, you know, the people who I knew from those worlds will reach out and be like: Hey, I recognize that.👩🏻Duana Taha: You know, there's a kind of an obvious sentiment that the show might resonate with anybody who's ever been in kind of a terrible workplace dystopia? Was there anything that you actually had to explain to the showbiz world of Los Angeles? That yes, this is a real thing, or yes, this is a reference that people make?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, a lot. A lot of the people, you know, who were producing the show, or who were working on the show had their own experience in those kinds of jobs, some of it years ago, some of it more recently. But there was some stuff like sort of the core principles and the slightly culty elements of the corporate world where I'm like, No, this is real, like. I basically didn't exaggerate that at all. The core principles are actually a less ridiculous version of something I really encountered at one of the jobs where there was just these themed principles, that didn't really make any sense. And they sent somebody around, someone came from the national office, and they came around to introduce the principles to us and the trip, I'm sure, cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know, it's all stuff that if you're wanting to be a creative person, and eventually turn this into a story, you're just sort of putting all that in your pocket as you go along.👩🏻Duana Taha: If I understood you correctly, you're saying that, you toned everything down for Lumon?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Not everything, but some things.👩🏻Duana Taha: That's terrifying enough to be going on. I think that overall, it's very clear that this is coming from a couple of different pin points, including, you're speaking largely to a Canadian audience here, though, that we have many climates or this vast country, I in the East don't think we've ever seen winter portrayed more honestly, or brutally on screen. Was that important? Was that a real choice? How did that go down?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, we did say we were like, If we get this wrong, the Canadians are going to come for us. They're going to know that we faked it. I am honestly really happy to hear you say that, because that was one of the hardest elements of this thing. Like really green writer, I'd never actually been in a writers room before. And so I had certainly never had to go out and be on a shoot, and sort of live the reality of the things I was writing before. So I would just very willy nilly be like, Okay, let's do another nighttime scene in the snow. And, you know, not realizing A) that that's always a nightmare to have to make that happen, you know, on any shoot, and B) that Ben Stiller is the most meticulous person in the world and is not going to do anything halfway, and so, you know, he and Aoife McArdle, our other director, they were very adamant that those seem do feel real, and that we shoot them out somewhere very cold at night. And so we had a great crew that were great. It was tough.👩🏻Duana Taha: And you started thinking about ways that move on, suddenly could have like, a climate control over the town in second season, I assume?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yes. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, they probably have an office in Phoenix or somewhere a little bit more warm.👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, speaking of, let's get into it, then. Let's talk about the specificities of Lumon. You know, this show has more than most developed an incredible number of fan theories. What is your process of that? Are you engaging with them? Are you laughing at them? Do you have to avoid them? Like, what's your sort of take on that?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I was, I was told right off the bat to avoid Reddit, because they're like, it will poison your brain, like you're gonna get totally in your head. It's going to become this weird feedback loop. That's going to drop, you know, drive you into the mouth of madness. And so I for about 10 minutes didn't go on Reddit. And then I caved, and I went once and I was surprised, cautiously surprised and delighted to find that it was this just wonderful, positive, delightful community of people who were just really excited about the show and it wasn't just a lot of people who made for various things I was like, Oh, this response is actually really positive. And it's just, it's sort of inspiring, because, you know, it's all this brand new art that's being created. And then the theories, which are, there are always some that are outlandish, but it's an outlandish show. So like, I sort of don't blame anybody for that. But then yeah, a lot of it is stuff that's really smart, and, in some cases, stuff where I'm like, Could I could I use that when I get in trouble if I just did that?👩🏻Duana Taha: How close is this? Versus how can I obfuscate it?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: But it's great. It's a great community. And it's really fun to to watch them do their thing.👩🏻Duana Taha: That's how you know when people are that engaged in that kind of a cypress about what they think is the truth. The one I see coming up most often is what's the real deal with the scary numbers in macro data refinement? And so my question to you is, I'm assuming you're not going to tell us what is really the deal. So what is your favorite incorrect assumption about what it might be?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Oh, boy, let's see. I'm trying to think because there have been a lot of really good ones. I'm trying to think if there's one that I want to admit is incorrect. I mean, definitely, a lot of people have have sort of assumed that it's kind of the first thing you would expect, which is some kind of like data mining or something like that. People's private records, which is, it may well be something like that. But I will say that when we were figuring out what the numbers are, that was sort of one of the first things that we thought, and it became this thing of like, what can we do that's either different or some kind of an elevation of that. So all I'll say is that I hope that it's something that people will be surprised by, I hope it's something that will feel both like it makes sense looking back, but that it also is a little bit counterintuitive. It's kind of what happens there.👩🏻Duana Taha: And one hopes that the truth will in some way align with Lumon's nine values. Let me say that for the audience, and I'll be watching to see if Dan malsum along with me, we have vision, verb, wit, cheer, humility, benevolence, nimbleness, probity, and wiles.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah. I had to listen to you say, at first on a couple of the middle, but I got there by the end.👩🏻Duana Taha: I consider myself pretty well read, but I still had to Google probity to make sure I was interpreting it correctly.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I forget what it means. What does it mean?👩🏻Duana Taha: Let's say, you know, we'll have some research and bring that back later in the talk, you know, make sure we both internalize it. So I'm sure that those were, as you say, much debated and or that some went in and some some came out in terms of the final line when you were debating them. But I was shocked to find out that Lumon had a dress code. So I guess, first of all, the immediate question is, the dress code is black, white, maybe gray and pastels. As if you weren't already depressed, you're allowed to have pastels, at Lumon. How much of this do you expect that the characters themselves sort of taken on day one? Or are these things that have kind of been policed among the Lumon employees over time and become kind of facts and rules? Are there distinctions between some of the things that we hear?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I think so. And by the way, just just real quick, I looked it up probity, the quality of having strong moral principles, honesty and decency. So I think part of that is dressing right. Yeah, I mean, the dress code is a funny thing specifically because I think it is as it is, in real life, sort of a way of policing the way people express themselves and sort of the level of your own humanity that you're allowed to bring into the into the workplace and your individuality. But then, I think it is probably also artificially policed in Unit even more by the company itself. Where Yeah, like They probably are not, you know, there's a color scheme. But the other the other thing that we talked about that hasn't really come into play much in the show yet, is that it would all have to be closed without any sort of label or writing because it has to get through the code detectors, because, you know, any sort of written symbols whatsoever won't go. And so, you know, we've talked about is there, how there may be like a severance-friendly clothing stores, like where if you're, if you're working a separate job, there's a specific store you can go to that has stuck with no writing whatsoever. But yeah, that's all. You know, that's stuff that would have to be explained to the "outtie", whereas most of the actual in office behavior stuff would be explained to the "innie", and I imagine on both sides, it's a bit of an education, it takes a while to sort of, you know, we see Helly we sort of clumsily bumping up against the rules. And I think that's something that probably happens for all of them.👩🏻Duana Taha: Quite often. Yeah. And you've answered a few questions there in the sense that, obviously, we know that there's enough of a enough of a severed population, that there's also anti-Lumon sentiment and anti-severance kind of movements, and clearly a need for retail locations. So I guess, within the world of the show, what is your kind of estimate of how many people were talking about less as a number and more as a, is, does it approximate a percentage point? Is it you know, is it a part of a given town only or? Because, you bring up a lot of questions there.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Right, right, right. It's a really, really good question. I actually have never been asked that before, and I want to make sure that I don't get, you know, the Apple dart in my neck.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yes, this is kind of an occupational hazard for you throughout this whole talk. Right?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, they're standing at the door with the blow dart thing. it's really overkill, in my opinion. But yeah, I think it's less than a percentage at this point. It's in the culture, it's like, you know, we see that it's something people are discussing at dinner parties or not dinner parties. And they're, you know, it's something that is debated, and is probably, you know, they're think pieces all over the internet about it and that kind of thing. But I think at this point, it's still very rare. There are other severed offices, there are other Lumon severed offices around the world, in various places. But like, for example, there are states where it's not legal for you, and there are others where it is. So you know, there's all a lot of that a lot of that is sort of world building stuff that we haven't even really gotten into on screen yet. But I think that's one of the most interesting parts, especially, if we do expand a little more into other parts of the "outie" world moving ahead, it's a deep sci-fi versus Armageddon sci-fi where I always think it's really interesting, when you're looking at how it would affect the culture in a society, which is Deep Impact, by the way. 👩🏻Duana Taha: Clearly, and don't, obviously, but yes, if you had to choose. And you confirmed something that I wasn't sure was, an actual narrative fact as opposed to a line for Mark. He's so earnest when he tells Helly about the code detectors, that I wasn't sure whether that was an immutably true fact or something that he had been told and digested, you know, but I appreciate A) that, that he pointed it out and B) that he knew what she was going to do with head cap because it took I think, is a little bit longer.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, well, he's, he's speaking from experience.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah. Well, okay. I love this. And, I'm excited to get further into, that part of things. But I should have said this at the beginning, but clearly, to the degree that you are able to answer questions spoilers abound, from this point forward. But one of the things that I found so interesting is that when the show begins, the name Mark. S is so generic, with all respect to the wonderful Adam Scott, but the name is so generic that you sort of glaze over it right away. The name Helly on the other hand, pretty rare. I don't know if I've ever known a Helly? Have you? And was it intentional to kind of keep that nod to her birth name? Or, like, because I know you've lived with this script for a while, so I wasn't sure if that was something that you always wanted to be the case.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Right, right. I, it's funny, I was trying to remember this recently, and I honestly don't remember exactly where the name Helly came from. I think it had, you know, sometimes I'll do like a late night, like name search Google binge thing, and just like, find something, it's like, Oh, this means blank in this language. So there's those get, and then I'll forget the next day why I picked it. So that that may have happened a little bit, but I think it did have something to do with the, it's almost shortening of the word Helly and a bit and conscious or otherwise, is the fact that the name sort of stirs up this, idea of of raising hell and, appending things. So I think, but then Yeah, it did become. It wasn't until later that we actually concede that this turn that of her being an Eagan. And so then, you know, it's sort of that was sort of a happy accident, where it's like, her name almost feels incomplete. Like we're waiting to hear the other side. The other part of it, you know, waiting to find out who she really is. So I think it all it all worked out.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, it definitely has sort of the air of anticipation in a way that a Dylan or an Irv doesn't. So yeah, definitely. That hit.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Well, and Mark was also that's the only character that's based on that this named after a real person because that character is named after my dad. So, yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: Shout out to Mark. Okay🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Shout out to Mark Erickson. Yeah. A very hardworking person who I thought deserved to have a character named after him. But I feel bad because of all the terrible things that Mark ends up being put through.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, did he have a real kind of relationship with him once he saw him on screen.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I don't know if sharing a name made them feel an immediate bond or not. But yeah, I don't know. It was it was something it was funny in the writing process being like, okay, and then this next, Mark witnesses a murder? And I'm like, Oh, sorry, dad.👩🏻Duana Taha: Here we go again. Yeah, this episode.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, here we are. So you mentioned this was your first writing room? If I understood you correctly, is that right?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: What, what was the most surprising thing that you went up going 18 Browns over? You know that? Well, I guess I should back up and ask you what was essential to be a writer in the Severance room? What were you looking for? What? What was sort of the quality that that meant to you? Yeah, this is somebody who's going to play well, in this sandbox.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: It was how was it tricky. It felt like a very narrow line to hit, you know, because it is a very specific tone. But you know, we wanted people who were funny, we knew that a lot of the language of the show is told through humor. And so I think that was a really important, whether or not, they were overtly comedic scripts, we wanted people who had that sort of ride, you know, even at times absurdist humor to their voice. But at the same time, I mean, we were creating such a world from scratch that we needed, people who knew were going to be good at that. And so we looked at, you know, really, people from really cool sci-fi shows that we liked and ultimately, though, it came down to every just everybody's sample and, you know, whether it was a play or, a pilot or, you know, whatever else a feature. It just had to be sort of an initial something at a click when we were reading it and make it and make us think, yeah, that's, they could they could operate in this in this world.👩🏻Duana Taha: And then so once you've assembled your sort of team of covert, covert, hilarious, world builders, yeah, were there big debates that were sort of constants that came up over and over again, or things that are fun activities. You know, when I think about the the euphemisms around, say, a wellness check, or the break room, I feel like that's kind of a writers room activity that might have gone on for for a long time, you know, the euphemism of what is HR, what is the commissary?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: No, it was fun. I mean, there was a lot, I wouldn't say that there was any. There wasn't much fighting or discord, we were all, I think, pretty much of the same mind on most of the stuff. But there were a lot of really fun debates. We talked about, like, Miss Casey in particular that that character, who, again, spoiler alert, we had to create a character that was sort of an important character hidden in plain sight, where, you know, by the time you realize who she actually is, and her relationship to Mark, you're, you're looking back and you're like, Oh, God, how did I miss that, and you're in a character, that seemed like they could exist, it's just kind of a funny, quirky side character. And we would accept her is that enough that we don't suspect there have been the other thing. And so there was like, at one point, she was gonna be this like, weird sort of traveling vendor, like selling things between departments. And there were a lot of sort of kooky different iterations of that character. And we just had a really good time. You know, improvising, and coming up with other other ways that we can portray her. And then the other thing that comes to mind is, so when Helly puts the, let me out on our arms, we had a lot of discussion about, like, how that would work, like, and at one point, it was like, we were all writing in pen on our fingers. And we were like, would she do it this way? You know, when she sort of tried to write it across the knuckles, but then we're like, no, because then the individual letter would still, so she'd have to cut up the letters. So maybe something like this. So there's a whole bunch of photos of from that time of just us various awkward, you know, appendages with with Sharpie writing on them.👩🏻Duana Taha: I'll be trying to get at that during the clip, of course, just try to write on my arm and see if I can manage it. There is I have one question about Ms. Casey. Before we get there, although we'll have many. My impression of her the way she ended up was that the the the name Miss Casey, when everybody else is used, as a first name implies almost like a, like a Romper Room kind of character or kindergarten teacher, you know, Miss Angela, or Miss Stephanie, somebody who is benevolently able to see everybody at all times. I don't know if that was sort of the the intent when she was, a traveling vendor as well? But definitely that separation and that sort of honorific that she has gave her that extra element.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, no, I it's funny. I think she did have a different name back when she was like a traveling vendor. But yeah, she, the name Miss Casey was sort of supposed to invoke that off the bat. But then also, in hindsight, it is. It's like, almost the melding of a first name and a last name. And, you know, we have this convention where the severed characters have first names and the, the un-severed ones have last names. And the fact that her first name, or last name could also be a first name, you know, it's sort of meant to invoke this idea that she's she's of both worlds a little bit. 👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, let's get to know her a little bit. This is clip number one, please. I think that enjoy each fact equally is, is one of my very, very favorite moments of the show. And then one of my favorite rules. Do you think this one I'm attributing right here Egean? Do you think there's a reason behind it? an easily explained sort of moral reason.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I think there is, I think it's, yeah, I think it's about how sort of all qualities are, must be kept in balance, you know, and we can't let our passion for one thing overwhelmed the other thing. I'm sure Kier could say it more eloquently than that, if you asked him but I I agree that it comes right from him.👩🏻Duana Taha: The combination of these characters, obviously is brilliant link constructed from you, but I have to assume that in the context of the show, that each severed worker is put together carefully and on purpose. For example, is it an accident that Helly is placed in macro data refinement? even though we have we have a spot open because of Petey? It seems as though you know would would Helly work as well in a different department?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Right, it's a good question. My thought had been that Helena Eagan was was planning to join. And I think specifically was planning to join Macro Data Refinement. That's not to say that that cause Petey's ousting, I see it more as something where she was sort of waiting for an opening. But I don't think I can say any more beyond that.👩🏻Duana Taha: We will steer safely away, or not too far away. It was my opinion. But this is just me watching that, when we see Helly try and failed to resign, whether or not it might be possible for somebody to resign? Certainly it doesn't seem like any of our team have ever seen that. Is that a fair thing to say?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, Dylan has that line towards the beginning where he says, you know, good luck getting it approved and Mark's like yeah, they tend to get rejected. I'm not sure if it's never worked. But I think it's it's sort of one of these things where it's like, they just assume it's like, yeah, you know, it's it's like putting a complaint in the complaint box. You'll never hear about it again. Yeah, I don't know if I'd say never. But certainly rarely.👩🏻Duana Taha: It makes it that much more exciting than the combination of people that you have in there because, for example, Mark is quite well indoctrinated, even though Petey was you know, as far as we know, trying to plot certainly make a map. Certainly, you know, trying to figure things out before he left. So it you kind of go, well, Marks earnestness must have been kind of a nice spot for people to hide behind, or was he trying to tell Mark things that Mark wasn't hearing?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, well, it is interesting, I think the line is in there where where Petey says to Mark, you know, you tried to quit, which implies two things like it implies that his resignation request didn't come through, because he is out he didn't get it. And also that, he had sort of a rebel period, that this mark, who we now see who is this kind of, you know, snarky, but overall contented company man, that there was maybe something else before that, and that maybe he had an initial reaction that was a little more akin to how Helly is reacting. And that's something that we sort of talked about is, like, with the, with the flowchart, entry, you know, an entry, welcome that Mark has to do that sort of has all these different. You know, she says this, you have to do this, and you wonder how that was created. And you know, how many people have come in here and freaked out and threatened to kill somebody, that they've got it down to the science of like, well, no, if you just walk them through this way, they'll eventually calm down. So, it's fun, because to me, it speaks at a much longer history. Like you wonder how long they've been doing this to the point where they have it down to a science like that.👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, we do wonder, Dan, we're just here trying to wear you down.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: If only somebody knew, if only somebody knew. And they could say it, but no, Alas, no one knows.👩🏻Duana Taha: But the opening that opening sequence in the conference room. It you know, brings up I don't know whether this is an unpopular opinion or not, but in a show full of dread. For my mind, the the biggest dread and the creepiest guy in the place is Milchick. And his beautiful big smile. He has to carry around all the enthusiasm and all the enforcement, is there. I suspect there's more that we don't know about him. Is that true? Or did you have fun writing him in sort of doublespeak What's the origin of Milchick there?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, or it shouldn't be because I completely agree with you. And that I mean, ultimately, you know, 99% of that is owed to Tramell Tillman, who is just this utter force of nature of an actor and created this really thoughtfully created this brilliantly enigmatic character. That could be both the funniest and the scariest thing on screen. You know in the same moment, and the fact that it worked that well, I would say that is the character. I think Tramell well is the actor who transformed the character, maybe more even than any other on the show, in terms of like, that was written as a, not a not a vastly different character but but just a little bit more of a kind of boring by the numbers HR guy, and a lot of the some of the malice was there, because it was, you know, it's sort of intrinsic and everything that that Lumon does this sort of smiling malice, but as soon as Tramell was in there doing his thing, we were sort of like, Oh, that's who he is. That's, that's who Milchick is and so yeah, a lot of it just happened on screen in front of me, and I just got to sit back and watch. But he was always supposed to be sort of this, smiling double speaking face of the company. Who was the one telling you everything was okay, while also telling you with his face that everything is not okay.👩🏻Duana Taha: And that's kind of the beauty of of getting to do TV on top of everything else is that when you see somebody do something like that, and you realize, Oh, the alchemy it's all coming together here. They have they fit in that last piece of the puzzle. We'll take a little bit of a look at that in our second clip. If we can have that one, please. So that is another one of those scenes that I think could have probably gone on for for half the episode, I would have spent all that time learning facts about about each and every person. Were there any other surprises for you in terms of casting? Or where the characters kind of went? Once their performers were in bed with him?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, all of them to one extent or another? For sure. I mean, I mentioned Tramell. But but every, every actor sort of brought in something that I didn't know was there, And created something that was like, I mean, it's a really weird, unique feeling that that isn't like anything else. When when you when you sort of create half of something, and then the other person comes in and shows you what the other half of it is. And and it's not always what you expect. And in a way, that's scary, but it was so fun and rewarding, because all of these, you know, people did such great things with it. But yeah, like, you know, John Turturro brought in sort of this austere gentlemanly vibe that was in the character a little bit on the, but not, you know, maybe not quite to that extent. And, sort of turned, you know, created the mannerisms of the character. And it was just as soon as he was on screen doing it, we're like, Okay, now we know, Irving, and now as we're like writing the later episodes or rewriting stuff, it becomes easier, because it's like, now we know who Irving is. But yeah, I mean, every every single actor did that, did that in some way.👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, and you have some huge names that you might be wondering if the names kind of supersede the characters, but they really disappear within them. Patricia Arquette and Christopher Walken, and everybody really was in this type cast. What did you tell to whom? Some of your some of your actors are playing dual roles? Some of them kind of know that or we think they kind of know that and some do not? Was it to case by case or were you quite quite protective over? You know, there's some shows you here but scripts going out with under lock and key. So yeah, what was sort of your philosophy?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: It was it was sort of case by case and I let the actor sort of lead that conversation, because I wanted to help them in whatever way was best for them in sort of crafting the performance. I remember Britt, Britt Lower who plays Helly wanted to know very little. I think that she, she was sort of more of the mind of she wants to know exactly what her character knows. She wants to go on this, scary awakening and journey with Helly, without knowing too much of the context, I forget when we did actually tell her that that, spoiler alert, Helly is an Eagan. I forget when we shared that with her, but I think it was a bit into the process. She, certainly knew by the time that she was like, in episode one she records, this message back to herself, which was actually done a little later in production. But, but yeah, it was different for each actor, I think. And in some cases, we didn't fully know. I mean, we built a lot of these characters knowing that we wouldn't them on the outside this season, barely at all. And so, you know, in some cases, we had, like, a rough idea of, you know, for example, who Dylan is outside, but, but there were, there were gaps of it that we hadn't filled in ourselves yet. So we weren't able to fully have that conversation with Zach, you know, even if, if he had, had wanted to at that point.👩🏻Duana Taha: Speaking of Dylan, I always assumed that I don't know when you had sort of the the genesis of the waffle party and all that that entails kind of lined up. But, one of the things about it is that you know, you assume that under any other circumstances, a guy like Dylan is going to want to tell everybody every solitary detail, but it's so weird. He actually can't like, nobody would believe him. I don't know, if that was on. Whether that came first or whether there was a version of the waffle party that was less, less?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Less, less, less of that? Yeah, there there was. I think it may have started as a joke. And I don't I hesitate to say that, because I don't, I really liked what it ended up being but but there was at one point in the room where we were like, well, what if it was sort of this oddly sexual, perverse thing. But then the more I think we talked about it, the more that it kind of made sense, in terms of that, we're in this office where, basically, you're not allowed access to that part of yourself, that part of your psyche, and that, you know, like anything else, Lumon would Lumon would take it and sort of commodify it and use that as a way to sort of, you know, carrot to keep people going the right direction. And, you know, in a world where everything is commodified, that that would sort of be the ultimate prize. And, and so you know, it felt like sort of an appropriately terrifying exploration of what sex would look like, in a world like this. And then also the fact of course, that they are sort of playing out this this weird, bold, image from the from the paintings of Kier taming the Four tempers, and that is, it's like, well, this is the it's like, you can feel those feelings, but they have to come from the company, they have to, they have to be given to you from on high by the company. And so it all just, it was uncomfortable and weird, but it felt, it felt like what Lumon would do, but there were definitely moments that you know, talking through it in the development where we're like, okay, are we seriously doing this though? Are we seriously? That's what the waffle party is. Okay. All right, let's do it.👩🏻Duana Taha: Just somebody waiting for somebody else to say, maybe we, maybe we shouldn't? 🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: No one said it. So we're like,👩🏻Duana Taha: Nobody hated it. But it makes sense because as there are so many different ways that we see that Lumon is, there's a bigger religious parallel than anything else. To my to my eyes, at least from everything from the art to be, to the values, to the the soul bags, or Cobel's shrine. Potato potato. But the compunction statement was the one that really got me that was the one that that felt much less about, you know, that's sort of the the the real sort of crux of when work becomes more than just a workplace where it's the sorryness and the apology is that was that an evolution? Was that something you always knew you wanted to do sort of those religious overtones and the slightly weird sexual rewards as a result?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, I mean, different different ideas came at different stages, certainly, but I think that the the religious and in some ways cult-like elements, I think they sort of evolved naturally because I think there is in some case, a weird blurry line between, a corporate culture and a cult. And, and, you know, when you when you are asked to work at a place where they tell you that, you know, your family here, and they give you a list of values of how to behave, and, and in some cases, you may work at a place with this, where there's a cult of personality around the CEO and almost a hero worship around the CEO and this idea that like, well, you know, this this person, it's okay to give yourself and give your labor over to this person, because there's some, this is someone who's going to save the world, you know, and we're not just making coffee here, we're supporting this figure who's going to go on and save the world. I'm not talking about anything specific, of course, but but I had just something I had noticed for for a while that like, there are these weird, the Venn diagram of how like a cult or even a religion will ask you to behave or ask you to think and you know, the way that that that certain workplaces operate, like there is overlap over there, there is overlap there. And and then of course, you know, we did look at different you know, what, like, real scary cults, people are made to, you know, do horrific things and, and the tactics that those people used. And so again, it was kind of it was kind of the slippery slope or the wavy line between those things that I was interested in, and you know, how Lumon could sort of bring, bring all those things together in a really spooky way?👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, like all cults, they are convinced they're doing the right thing, right. Like there's, I assumed that somewhere in the high up, Lumon brass that somewhere in the Egean's they believe that what they're doing is, is helping someone.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yes,👩🏻Duana Taha: Probably? Yeah. Yeah.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I, well, wait, I don't want to confirm anything. I shouldn't. But no, I'll say in the vaguest terms, that that that was something we talked about, and that we thought was important was just this, like, you know, nobody is really evil for the sake of evil. There are people who are greedy and selfish and don't really have morals, per se, that come out in their behavior. But, it's more interesting, I think, if this big, scary shadowy conglomerate corporate villain actually believes in something twisted, though it is like that's going to create for more, interesting conflicts and more interesting sort of philosophical debates as, as our heroes tried to figure out and then, take down what this company is trying to do. So yeah, we, in coming up with, like, what their ultimate ethos is, and their ultimate goal is, we tried to make something that sort of made a moral sense, like that made some moral sense, even if it was really skewed and scary.👩🏻Duana Taha: Right, that for somebody, if you accept X, then also Y and then they think, yeah, well, speaking of moral quandaries and complex things, we're gonna be going to questions in just a couple of minutes. So please send them in. If you have questions for Dan about the show. And, you know, see if you can get around those those laser filters and Apple darts. In the meantime, though, a couple more questions for you. There's so much lore here, since there's so much depth. I wonder whether at this point in your press tour, whether there's anything that you desperately wish somebody would ask that nobody has yet?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Oh, that's a good question. Um I mean, no one, no one has asked, no one has asked me to take offense to this, how severance might be used in like, the process of getting in shape, or getting healthy, or, dieting or exercising. And I just want to say I think that there are some maybe really scary answers potentially, to that question. So that's something that maybe, maybe moving ahead will will add to the discourse.👩🏻Duana Taha: Sure, because I can see how you know if you if you have the technology, right, that somebody Lumon might say might Want to expand into? Yeah, that's a real that's a real market there.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: It's never your workout. If you could just, you know, it's okay. I'm gonna do we're gonna do three hours in the gym now.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, I don't I don't think my answer is supposed to be sign me up. But you know, I can I can see where it would where it would turn heads for sure. Yeah. But okay, that's, that's really interesting that there are. Are there other places that you're debating whether Lumon can go, obviously we saw Gabby and the childbirth sort of conundrum that happened with the with she and Mark sister so we know that is beginning to be adopted elsewhere. But are there other places that have things that maybe people could outsource?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I think that list is endless, which I think is why ultimately more than anything, that's why this was a TV show and not a not a film or a mini series. Because like, early in the process, like I spoke to my manager, like format for this and it was ultimately the fact that there are so many applications for this technology that that that's what really made us want to keep it going. Because yeah, I think that you know, Gabby in the birthing center, you know, that's really scary, the more you scratch at it, but it just opens the door to other things. It's like almost anything that you don't like, could theoretically be severed away. And I think that that just opens the door to a really cool world. A really a really interesting world.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, especially when you think about the what haven't we thought about, who are we already seeing. Because it's not like people for severed are wearing any sort of indication just yet. So you know.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: "Innie"-casion? it was,👩🏻Duana Taha: Say that last one again?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I made a joke. I said "innie"-occasion.👩🏻Duana Taha: Oh.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I apologize.👩🏻Duana Taha: No, not at all. I'm just realizing that my own "outie" at this moment not somewhere, you know, relaxing and, and laughing at me.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: We're both at work. So we are technically both in "innie" form right now.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, it's and it's nice to know that. I guess maybe this is the entry point, right that there's another me having a wonderful glamorous life out there. It's like Instagram, but all the time. So we have a question from Adam, who asks, did you have any input in the insanely detailed driven set design and prop creation process? Or did that come from Ben Stiller's meticulous tendencies? or a third option that's not in the binary, I guess.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Right. Right. Well, thank you for the question. actor Adam Scott, you could have just called me but I appreciate it. No, yeah, it was, some of that was in the, the script, I mean, that the script was definitely describe the sort of sterile maze like hallways, and I think the script did specify, like MDR being having these really big for these really weird proportions of this big, wide space, and then the small kind of cubicle sort of island in the middle. But beyond that, like the vast majority of it was, was, you know, stuff, like just meetings that we had with with with Ben and with Jeremy Hindle. And Jessica Gagné, who was our, our DP, and, you know, many, many others who were involved with sort of creating the overall look of it. So it was a mix. I mean, I think the basics of it were there but then it got really, it got really fleshed out through the communal process.👩🏻Duana Taha: I'm assuming that you were on set most of the time if not all the time. So how much of your life would you say that you spent watching people walk through hallways.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: All of it, for a while. I mean, that was all I was doing because it was in the pandemic so it was that and then I would I would go home and I but most of the yeah most of the space around us, the funny thing is we had the the set that had this, weird endless tiers of white hallways. And then in the soundstage. Beyond that were even more endless white hallways that like didn't look too dissimilar from from the set. So there was this really weird, you know. And then yeah, I would be sitting watching the monitors. So it's like there's the world of the show. And then it's really happening out here. It got very confusing after time, for a while, what was real and what was not.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, I just I started thinking about, you know, if people were called just for walking days, you know that you could, you could see your actors just suiting up for four or five hours at a time of just hallways, happy hallways, curious hallways, alarmed hallways?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Every kind.👩🏻Duana Taha: Every kind and more to come. Here is, there's a great question from Sarah, who writes: Some of the "innie" vernacular is just a little bit off, for example, eager lemur, or Dewey mouth are both quite understandable, but a bit jarring. How did you come up with that linguistic vibe?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, we sort of wanted to give a sense that there was, it's like an insular world, it's like, this is a town where the past was blocked off, you know, back in the 30s. And so these people sort of, created their own vernacular and their own language a little bit. You know, it is it is just such a cut off world that we wanted to make it feel like it had its own culture a little bit. But that also might have just been a justification for me to like, write goofy stuff that I thought was funny. In the moment, I didn't know that was sort of the language and the logic kind of informed each other mutually in that in that case.👩🏻Duana Taha: There's obviously we know that the the "innies" have no access to tech, or the any sort of online world or anything like that. But it seems as though even outside the, you know, the cars seem a little bit older, that the, the houses are not super decked out. So is that just in the the world of Kier? The town? Or does it extend further? Like, is this sort of Lumon world philosophy?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Right. Um, it's a, it's a really interesting question that I don't have a total firm answer to because, yeah, to some extent, it is just a slightly stylized world. But in another way, I mean, one thing we talked a lot about was giving the sense that, even when you're not in the company, like even when you're not down in the basement, you're still in Lumon, in a way, let like that, you know, you're not in the belly of the beast, but you still might be within its grasp, you know, if you're out in the town, and that, in a way, in a way that's maybe more in than we realize the town, the town really is an extension of the company, and in some ways, so, once we had established that, the inside had this aesthetic of being a little bit out of space and time, and sort of a little bit intentionally disorienting and space and time where you couldn't, they don't know where and where they are, or exactly when they are. But but that some of that sort of bled into the outside so that, like, we never specify the exact year in the show, we never specify the exact state. And so there's, we wanted to maintain some of that. Now, if we were to go to New York City in this world, Would it? be similarly sort of quirky and strange? I honestly don't know yet. We don't. I don't have a I don't have an answer. But I think it's a really, it's a interesting question in regard to the world building.👩🏻Duana Taha: Well, and one more that, largely for me is there's very specific language all the time around, some people live in the town of Kier. And it's specified more than once some people do. Is that true? Are there people who live outside of the town who who make it to to Lumon?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Like, like people who work at Lumon but don't live in in the city of Kier proper? I think so.👩🏻Duana Taha: Okay.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: In theory, yeah. Most of them probably live in Kier but you could have someone from like the wider county area.👩🏻Duana Taha: That would pass the screening process if they if they weren't, you know, too immersed in a in the outside world.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Good question. It's a good question.👩🏻Duana Taha: I mean, a little bit to put you on the spot, but mostly not. We have a question from Jeff wants to know who are your favorite short story and novel writers and have any of them fed into your conception or style of Severance?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Hmm, that's a really good question. And I always freeze up the moment anybody asks me something like that. And then later I'm like, Oh, I should have said this person. I mean, Vonnegut is an easy choice, and certainly was inspirational, you know, somebody that I read when I was, in my early 20s, and got obsessed with and informed a lot of my language and style and tone. I like to think, and then, like, George Saunders is someone I really like. Yeah, I mean, those would be the first that come to mind. And then I mean, there's, you know, you know, people everyone knows, it's, you know, Kafka and people like that, who definitely made their way into the tone.👩🏻Duana Taha: And I would assume too that, the same goes for people who ask about TV influences. Everybody knows when you're working, you have no time to watch anything. But in between, brief hiatuses, or, or whatnot, what have you, what have you enjoyed?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Oh, man.👩🏻Duana Taha: Whether similar or far away.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Recent stuff?👩🏻Duana Taha: Like real show. Yeah. Like when you were talking, for example, about the hero worship of a CEO. I thought, Oh, well, you've also seen the "Drop out" then. But, you know, what have you been enjoying in terms of? Yeah, just other stuff that sort of in the same in the same yearly demo as Severance that's been in the kind of the same zeitgeist.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I did. I love the "Drop out." I thought it was great. It's, it's so it's interesting to be making the show at a time when there are a couple of those like, true life, you know, fraudulent CEO, miniseries happening. I mean, there's, you know, there's that there's, "WeCrashed", there's others, but I think that I also really, I love all those shows, and I also absolutely am obsessed with "Succession" I think is terrific. And I think like at our, you know, at our highest aspiration, we would be sort of another side of the coin of because I think people are really interested right now, in, in those, big huge capitalists doing terrible things, stories. And I think that that's because there's a lot of people questioning, like, Oh my god, is this system really benefiting any of us? Is this, you know, is this something where corruption is just able to run rampant and why I think that shows like that are looking at that. And sort of, but you know, we're seeing sort of the CEO side of it, you know, where something like "Severance," obviously, it's different tonally and genre wise. But, you know, it is a story that I think, looks at some of those same themes, but you know, we're with the workers on this one. And we're, you know, we're down and the focus is basically the effects that this system has have having on these people who are trying to live their lives. So I think it's really exciting to be it's a really exciting time to be making TV and especially making TV about work and about, you know, the system that employs us, because I think that that's something a lot of people are talking about right now. I also love "YellowJackets." I thought "YellowJackets" was terrific. I thought it was really scary.👩🏻Duana Taha: It was scary and delicious. And Bart and Ashley, the creators were here with us doing a talk a few months ago, and yeah, they're amazing.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah. I'm fanboying over that, because that that was a that was a really cool show.👩🏻Duana Taha: Yeah, the delicious also, but, yeah, to your earlier point. I am not the creator of this term. But I really enjoyed the somebody said we're really in the middle of a "scam-demic" television, you know, starting with "Fire fest", so yeah, they're right.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: "Fire fest" kind of kick it off. Yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: Then it was like, well, like we need more we just want we just want to cringe more.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah.👩🏻Duana Taha: We have a question from Spanic, I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Who writes: Was it your original intention to write episode nine as a breaking away from the traditional ABC screenplay structure of the first eight episodes?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: That's a that's a really good question. Kind of, but not really. I'm not not consciously like. We weren't like, you know, screw you "Seinfeld", we're gonna we're gonna go our own way on this last one. But it was more like we wanted to do something where we could have done all the structural work of sort of setting up every single Domino and then just let it tip. And we wanted the last episode to feel extremely visceral and fast. And like, you know, we were experiencing it in the same crazy confused state as the "innies" were. So I think that that sort of naturally led to something that that didn't feel as sort of rigorously or carefully structured as the previous episodes. So yeah, again, it wasn't that it wasn't totally conscious. But I think that I think that we got there because we wanted this to feel like just a absolute visceral kind of panic show.👩🏻Duana Taha: Speaking up, we talked about kind of the zeitgeist of work shows that you're in, but also, in the zeitgeist of it used to be that shows like this had eight episodes, maybe six, maybe 10. Now we're in this odd numbered sequence was that? Did it? Did it keep you up at night to go? Yeah, we're gonna end on episode nine.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, just the OCD. You're like, Oh, yeah, come on. Yeah, no, we were. And I've said this before, I'm pretty sure I can say this, we were originally going to do 10 episodes. And part of that was, you know, over the course of the pandemic, like we had to sort of tighten some things in order, for budgetary or production reasons. But we also just, I think we reached a point where it felt like the right number, let like it just sort of, in order to tell everything we wanted to tell at the pace, we wanted to tell it, you know, we got to this point, it was like this, this just feels right. So you know, we could have, we could have pushed to keep it at 10. But I think that we we sort of had this instinct that it was, this was this was the place to get out.👩🏻Duana Taha: I think it was a good call the cry of outrage when you realize it's the last one and where it stops is, is sort of heard throughout. So I think well done. We've got five minutes time for just a couple of questions. And Megan wants to know, what was the development process for the show? Who was the first person to say yes.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Um, wow. Well, the first person to say yes, was my manager, Ben Blake, who was extremely supportive again, I was driving for Postmates when he took me on. And and he saw something special in this in this show, and really, really helped me sort of get things moving. This publication called the "Bloodlist" said yes, they were they were, you know, they're a genre specific take on on something like the blacklist where they, they take on produce scripts that people are into, but no one's made. And they sort of elevate them, which is, you know, they've been doing for years is great. And then yet, Jackie Cohen, who's a producer at Red hour was the first person to actually like, read the script and be like, I think we can make this like, I think we could make this and then she brought it to Ben. And then, you know, once once Ben said, yes, then a lot of other people said, yes. But yeah, Ben, I mean, the really exciting thing was in meeting with Ben, how, immediately, like thoughtful, he was about it. And you know, sort of the opposite of this celebrity who comes in and sort of slaps their name on something. It was like, right away, he was like, Okay, we need to, you know, if we're going to do this, we need to get into this and this, and we need to figure all this stuff out. And I was very happy to do so I was like, Yeah, let's hit the ground running. But yeah, it was it was it was a long time. I mean, it took it took from when our first version the pilot to where it got it was like almost 10 years.👩🏻Duana Taha: And, you know, the that's that's the reality of the quote unquote, overnight success, right? It takes a little bit sometimes. Yeah, exactly.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: "Many hungry nights."👩🏻Duana Taha: I think, as a as I guess, a final question there. So over 10 years, there's going to be so many permutations and notes and versions and things of that nature. And now you're in the position of not only did you make it, not only is it a complete critical success, but you get to make more. Is there one element, you mentioned a little hint of one, is there one thing that you sort of had to leave by the wayside for space or time or availability that you're excited to get back to in season two or subsequent seasons.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: Yeah, sure, there are a lot. And I don't think I can say anything about any of them. But, yeah, there's there's definitely plenty of, you know, Ben is a very, he wanted us to make sure that we were giving the show room to breathe and giving the characters room to feel organic, and that we weren't rushing from one thriller beat to another. So, you know, there's plenty of story, that we had talked about first for season one that that may well end up in season two. Because, you know, but ultimately, the most exciting thing is just what, what's going to happen to these characters that we've come to love and really care about?👩🏻Duana Taha: And are they going to be able to find the goats again?🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: I mean, I, It's "chekhov's goat", you know, you can't put a goat on screen and then do nothing with it. But who knows? 👩🏻Duana Taha: There's no greater promise than that. Dan Erickson. Thank you so so much for being with us. Here at "VIFF creator talks." This is absolutely fantastic. Thank you.🧔🏻‍♂️Dan Erickson: It's been so much fun. Thank you so much for having me and everybody. This has been great.